Curse

Chyster · Jul 22, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I have noticed topics of discussion in other threads (mainly monks) where there have been some problems concerning the tank builds (any) and deals primarily with healing but also extends into other crafts and the total team build.

If your a tank, and you expect to be healed, why run off 600 miles from the party?

The first thing most tanks do is confront a mob and right before the aggro, hit one or more speed skills that zooms them out into the middle of nowhere. They take major spike damage, die and complain that the monk isn't doing it's job.

First, I have to say from experience in tanking, that it is a good idea to get out there quick to get the brunt of the aggro on you. But, this leaves your support group choking in hill dust and if you dont have the right build you will die. The support group DOES NOT have those same skills to zoom across the map to get to you.

***Example***Last night, I played with a group in FoW where the leader (a tank) would shoot off to the back of the mob to pound the opposing monk and be half an aggro bubble away from the rest of the group. Yes those monks have to go, but when this tank died, repeatedly, he began to verbally abuse the monk. The monk replied that he was running too far and too fast, the tank replied that the monk wasn't running far enough or fast enough. This went on until the monk had enough of him and left. Incedentally, our monk was doing very well keeping everyone healed that was close enough to do so.

After reading through the monk thread repository, I understand that their support is limited and this pretty much applies to all of the support group. If you aggro another group before they (the support group) are ready, ie. protection, spirits, traps, energy, health, etc. and you die, don't hammer the others in the group because you died.

From my perspective in tanking, there is no "i" in team. I may be able to survive indefinately in certain situations, but cannot do enough damage to end the encounter OR I can do enough damage to end the encounter but cannot survive indefinately without the support group.

Tanks are getting a bad name for being brash, callous, unfeeling, uncaring, over zealous, impatient and the PRIME contributors for team failure. In the above example, the group did very well without the tank with an uber death wish. But when the monk left us with just a boon/protect, it was too much.

I am throwing this out in this Tank area to get some feedback from other tanks. Primarily, I am interested in understanding this 'strategy' if you want to call it that. Running so far away from the rest of the group, or expecting them to be ready when you are is ludicrous. If you depend on any one person in the group to stay living, they in turn depend on us to wait until they are ready.

This isn't meant to piss anyone off, it is not a flame but flames are welcome in response. Even flames can tell me a whole lot about the people who wrote them. Just don't get yourself in trouble doing it.

Chyster

DFrost · Jul 22, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I've had a warrior for a long time, but it wasn't until Factions I took her to higher level areas. Let's just say that tanking well is a lot harder than I initially thought.

-If the rest of the group doesn't give you enough space, you probably can't maintain the aggro.
-You're kind of expected to "hold the line" against enemy mobs, but more often than not people call targets that are in the backline. If you attack the monk in the back, you can be called a rushing idiot. If you stand your ground at the frontline instead, you can be complained at for not following target calling.
-Tank is expected to go first into battle. The team should have decent communication so that the warrior will know when it's OK to go (both energy- and patrol-wise).

I try to give warriors a break these days. Costly mistakes can sometimes be made easily even if you're not an idiot with an idiotic build.

WinespringBrother · Jul 22, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I think the tank's job is not to kill, but to keep aggro away from the squishy Ele's and necros, who can be the main source of damage to both frontline and backline foes. It isn't to run way back into the enemy ranks after the monks who can probably outheal the damage the warrior is doing anyway while said warrior is being ganked out of his own monk's range. If I as a tank run too far from my monks and get killed, I know it is deserved. As a monk I don't appreciate tanks running too far behind battle lines to safely try to heal them, and if they do it more than once, I don't even bother healing them. It's not worth the effort.

Rera · Jul 22, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

The biggest problem of team play is the inability of people to listen and follow directions. A bad player is a bad player regardless of what profession they play or what build they use, and there are simply too many bad players.

For these monks, their primary complaint may be leeroy tanks. I personally don't see many of those (probably due to the classes I play). As a warrior player, my biggest problem is casters - casters that think they are tanks, casters that draw aggro and then run (usually right towards monks), casters that don't look where they stand (ie. in the middle of a Maelstrom), casters that draw unnecessary aggro because they spend more time looking at their skill bar than looking at their minimap, etc.

On the issue of tanks specifically, the alpha warrior must run a fair distance away from the rest of the group to give herself some room to manuever. Ideally, a warrior wants to run forward, draw all aggro, and then bunch them around the enemy casters in a neat, tight cluster. The warrior also doesn't want anyone hitting them from behind, which ignores shield AL and also results in critical hits. In order to accomplish all of this, the warrior may need to dance around a bit. If the team is right behind her, she's not going to have much room to work with. So warriors are correct in wanting to put some distance between themselves and the rest of their party - the main issue is, how much distance is enough? Clearly, if your party has to run for several seconds or more to get within casting range, you are are too ****ing far away. The team wants to keep monsters out of aggro range while the warrior positions them, but they want to be able to jump in and help if things suddenly go south. So, probably something around longbow range should work.

Many warriors take the same build into every area without considering what their job entails and what kind of opposition they will be facing. If you know you're going to be facing heavy spike damage, bring something to mitigate it. Some people are going to object here, but look, I'm not asking you to take a full bar of defensive stances. Warriors have a lot of natural damage reduction, and you're only going to have to survive without help for a few seconds. Even a single basic defensive skill like Watch Yourself! or Shields Up! can be enough.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some monks really don't heal fast enough. In a tanking scenario, the warrior has probably been taking damage for a few seconds by the time the monks run up to heal them. If the warrior brought a 'tanking build' they might be okay, but damage-focused warriors are going to be pretty low on health. A Healing Breeze at this point is going to be too little, too late - how about something closer to Word of Healing. I'm not asking for Infuse Health here, but try to use some common sense.

Chyster · Jul 22, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I would agree with statements on casters who disrupt the aggro. Its much simpler for the back group to "Count one two three" then edge up to the mob within casting range of the Tanks, but just out of aggro range. Its the casters that "wanna try out this new build" that cause many problems also.

As for slow healing monks, I have seen this also. For these guys......put some points in Divine, it does make a difference. I would like to state that when I do run a healing monk build, I carry the big healing guns like WoH and Heal Other. I also try to run +8 pips on the tanks from Healing Breeze, spam Orisons and WoH (5 energy each) to help manage energy and hit the other energy sinks when needed. I rarely have complaints.

By far my biggest concern is the continued practice of bad Tanking tactics by a large majority. But as previously hinted, if you suck playing a tank, well......you just do.

Thanks for the input and allowing me to vent. At least I can see that I am not alone in my thoughts. There are others who can concieve the concept of balancing distance from backlines.

Aisius · Jul 22, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I agree with most said here.

Only I tend to lean towards the tank trying to get out ahead of the group and tank / body block the mobs from attacking the groups backline. If this fails I think the tank/warrior should have some party buffs with them and immedietly get back in range of the group and provide some help ie shields up. watch yourself.

I think anyone reading this that hasn't read "the Art of Tanking guide" on the guru boards should give it a going over - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ing-id1982.php

As far as monking i try my hardest to keep the tank out of my aggro bubble, throw on heal breeze before most pulls(unless alot of mesmers), use WoH and heal seed, also run dwayna's kiss with heal party. Main problem I have is warriors run out of heal range and then seem to spend more time tanking a solitary mob rather than getting back and playing with the group.

jummeth · Jul 22, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Solution: Stop wasting a player slot and use your warrior for damage.

In the end, there are just as many crap other profs as there are crap warriors.
It happens all the time, like a Curse Necro running the entire mob at the Bonder, who was 1 agro back from the mid/backline....

CagedinSanity · Jul 22, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

A lot of tanks do that yes, and most live. But if the tank rushed into a high level group and dies, little or almost NO faults go with the monk since that warrior didn't maintain his skills properly. I as a tank die all the time with and without healers, and the fault is normally my own. I find it stupid that blame goes ANYWHERE when someone dies.
I personally speed-skills like sprint should only be used in money-making runs and is an unnecessary and wasteful of a slotspace when doing missions or quests. To me, having sprint in a mission is bad skill-management. That spot could be used for something more efficient.

That's my warriors point of view.

I also have a monk which is good to get multiple points of view. For one thing, a monk can only heal so fast. A lot of party members lose health and die faster than i can cast a spell, but I don't blame them. And i have yet to be blamed because of their deaths. (Believe it or not, a lot of spellcasters like to "tank" too for some reason. Especially blood necros. Sad thing.)

Chyster · Jul 23, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Thanks and keep em coming.

One of the things that concerns me is the LACK of monks. I think that monk bashing is part, but not all, of the problem.

Oh and BTW, I found out later that the problem tank illustrated in my example was drunk off his butt. Now that explains a whole lot. Sure feel sorry for any spouse he lands. Eeeeesh!!!!

Don Zardeone · Jul 23, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

My main used to be my warrior. But because I was always asked to tank when the circumstances prevented me of tanking (people breaking my aggro), I just gave up on that.

First a bit about me and my war....
I've been in other games and was a warrior there too. It was my (or our when we had multiple warriors in some cases) to get the monster to attack me and not our support.
In one of those the warrior was both the main damage dealer and main defensive unit. The healing however came from monk-style players.

Tanking in GW was very similar so it was easy for me to do...
however

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chyster

I have noticed topics of discussion in other threads (mainly monks) where there have been some problems concerning the tank builds (any) and deals primarily with healing but also extends into other crafts and the total team build.

If your a tank, and you expect to be healed, why run off 600 miles from the party?

If the tank stays with the group then euh, the other people get hit. But this is probably not what you're asking.

Quote:

The first thing most tanks do is confront a mob and right before the aggro, hit one or more speed skills that zooms them out into the middle of nowhere. They take major spike damage, die and complain that the monk isn't doing it's job

I think this can be explained by 1 thing: experience. THere are craploads of "experienced" warriors out there. They advertise being pro or experienced but if you ask them if they have a monk char they end up admitting that they only have their warrior.

From what I've seen, experience in GW... It comes fastest from playing all different professions. I know players who have been a warrior for over a year and still suck at it. Those I know who have several characters and professions, they know the strenghts, weaknesses and LIMITS of other professions.

Proof that having only 1 or 2 PvE chars equals inexperience is when you're playing a full healermonk in any mission and you heal like a maniac. Still, the team fails and some random "experienced" noob yells "OMFG WHERES THE HEALING? NOOOOOB MONK, NOOOOB". These players don't know the limits of monks.

Another example/proof is when a warrior is tanking nicely but notices his hp goes down to 50% or less. He then runs back or starts yelling the noob stuff again. Here too, he doesn't know the STRENGTHS of a monk. WoH is a very energy efficient healing skill that will heal for a crapload... if the target has below 50% hp.
An inexperienced player will not be able to know this simply because he hasn't played the monk profession before.

A tank who runs back to the castergroup, or who uses a bow (good) to lure monsters to the team (bad) is also an example of a tank who doesn't know the WEAKNESSES of his fellow players.
Often, they're the ones who brag about being a good player because they're the last one to die.

The same goes for eles, monks, rangers, etc who don't know the limitations, strengths and/or weaknesses of warriors.

Quote:

First, I have to say from experience in tanking, that it is a good idea to get out there quick to get the brunt of the aggro on you. But, this leaves your support group choking in hill dust and if you dont have the right build you will die. The support group DOES NOT have those same skills to zoom across the map to get to you.

***Example***Last night, I played with a group in FoW where the leader (a tank) would shoot off to the back of the mob to pound the opposing monk and be half an aggro bubble away from the rest of the group. Yes those monks have to go, but when this tank died, repeatedly, he began to verbally abuse the monk. The monk replied that he was running too far and too fast, the tank replied that the monk wasn't running far enough or fast enough. This went on until the monk had enough of him and left. Incedentally, our monk was doing very well keeping everyone healed that was close enough to do so.

When I was new I went for the healers right away too.
While that seems logical, there still are other, better ways to do things.
The enemy monk will be in his own backline. WHat you're doing by going for the monk is ignoring the enemy frontline and putting your frontline on their backline. Overlapping is poo because then your supportgroup is overlapping too... with the melee front line.

Anyways, the problem with the warrior running off could be solved by communication through chat, chatmacros or voice comms: tank:"I'm goin", monk:"right behind you"

But it sounds a bit like your warrior was aggroing too much than what he can handle, showing he's a major noob or like you said, drunk, because he doesn't even know his own strengths, weaknesses and limits.

Quote:

After reading through the monk thread repository, I understand that their support is limited and this pretty much applies to all of the support group. If you aggro another group before they (the support group) are ready, ie. protection, spirits, traps, energy, health, etc. and you die, don't hammer the others in the group because you died.

Like I said before, if you want to do stuff that requires experienced people, get experienced people. They don't have to know the map or the monsters or where chests are, they just need to know what they can and can't do and what others can and can't do. At least, that's my pov.

Quote:

(...)

I am throwing this out in this Tank area to get some feedback from other tanks. Primarily, I am interested in understanding this 'strategy' if you want to call it that. Running so far away from the rest of the group, or expecting them to be ready when you are is ludicrous. If you depend on any one person in the group to stay living, they in turn depend on us to wait until they are ready.

I was never really sure if I was doing things right. Other people couldn't tell me because they didn't play warriors and had therefore no idea other than to tell me to "tank" and "kill stuff"

Asking around on forums is useless too. There's no way a warrior will figure out if a monk has good energy or not by reading monkguides.
He needs to play one to find out how they work.

Imo, they just need the experience.

but.......
Playing in pugs doesn't help you much. Puglets will screw up for you so you can't really learn anything from those. You will probably need a high IQ or a good guild or friendslist to get better.

Anyways, to close off this essay...
3 words:
Strengths, weaknesses, limits

X.x

Amity and Truth · Jul 23, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

The tanks are basically not the problem. It is simply the fact that you can't tank in a random PUG. Even though i've written a whole guide to tanking, the sad truth is that it is not applyable to random PUGs. Even though it is a quite easy concept, it requires your party to understand it.
And that is where it fails, the party. You can be the best tank in Guildwars, a single person out of 8 or even 12 Players is enough to screw the whole concept of tanking. So with this, comes another problem. If a warrior is using a Tank Build, but his team is incapable of working with aggro, you now have a worthless warrior that is not contributing much to a team.

In Short:
Tanking in PUGs -> Impossible.